Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey Anthony, I don't know about Serge, but I glue on the purfs seperatly because I don't want any gaps at all between the purf and the spruce (or top). No matter how hard I try, I can't ever seem to machine 'perfect' channels. When I try gluing on everything together, I always wind up with an unsightly crack on the spruce side and then I need slivers to cover up.   With the purfs glued on seperatly, it's also a lot easier having perfect mitters.

Once the purfs are all glued in, I go around cleaning up the binding channel and making sure it's nice and square and even... Then I glue on the binding. If there are cracks, they are very minimal, and they are always between the purf and binding. A little drop of CA and or sawdust and you're golden.

I love HHG for this. I do a 5-6 inch section at a time. I always keep a hair dryer and an old clothes iron at the ready. Once a section is done, I'll just heat it up lightly to make sure.

I'd love to try binding/purfling with CA, but it's just that I don't trust it. If someone could assure me that 100 years down the road the CA would still be holding strong, then I'd go that route for sure. Tape it all up dry, wick in CA... Laugh all the way to the bank... However, I'm skeptical. HHG? Now THAT glue has centuries upon centuries under it's belt...

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

WOW, what a great response generated from a choice of glues!

Thanks Rod, no offense taken by your comments bro, just did not understood what you meant! JJ well described the procedure for the top to which i will only add that your first ennemy is your FEAR, once you overcome it and can concentrate, you do practice runs with the timer by your side and allow yourself 40-45 seconds to spread the bead, put the top on the rims and the gobar rods where they are most important at first (6-8 rods, in a cross pattern for me), and i often bend down to look under the overhang to make sure the top is well seated all around. Make sure you have all the material needed close at hand but not in the way so that when you do your mental prep, everything goes smoothly!

Thanks Coe! I appreciate that bro!

Thanks JJ, very good description of the whole process and it sure is nerve racking the first time but once i saw how well it went for the top, i was way more courageous when came time to glue the back on!


Anthony wrote: Help me understand the value in using HHG for bindings as gluing purflings and bindings seperately seems like a lot of unnecessary extra work. Further it increases the risk that the purfling doesn't seat with the bottom of the purfling channel - which would increase the chance of later having unsightly gaps between the purfling and bindings. Even the sage Mario uses CA for gluing on purfling/binding.

First, thanks for the kind words bro! Now, about HHG and purflings and bindings, Alain explained it better than i could have, i do it separately too for i'm too slow to get both not entangled and asked for people to give me a trick but now, after Alain's eloquent post, i think i'm gonna keep doing it this way because the results were there for me so the extra time was worth it and had no visible gaps especially in the waist area where this used to be more problematic for me. The purf went on and was taped tight with HHG so it had no chance to untack and same for the binding.

Alain, Thanks for explaining this very well and i will keep on doing it this way my friend!

Thanks Hesh, you bring very good insight and perspective as always bro! I believe HHG does somehow help tonewise because the glue joints are peripherical to the top and to the back to which the plates are also glued with HHG unlike the side braces for instance, so to me, the crystalisation of the HHG helps all around in that manner but since i'm no expert in describing sound, i'll just add that no 3 ssounds more glassy than no 2 and i'm anxiously waiting to put them strings on.

I must agree with you though that not everyone should do this and that it should remain a matter of comfort for each and everyone, wheter using HHG or Titebond or thin CA, use what makes you at ease, i chose HHG because of what i've heard from Al's no 2 and now that i hear something promising on mine, i will go this route. It could very well be that my bud Al is a great salesman too!

One other thing I forgot to mention about the tops and backs. Since there's no time to futz with the fit of the braced plates to the sides, it's absolutely imperative that the brace ends fit PERFECTLY into the notched liners(also true for any glue, BTW) and the center lines match up. When I do the dry run and install all of the gobars, I go around the perimeter with a .002" feeler gauge to check for gaps. I don't go live until everything is tight. I seem to remember Mario saying that he actually puts a flashlight inside and turns off the room lights. If he sees light leaks, it's not tight enough.

I sure miss that grumpy dude!

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Good reminder about the feeler gauge and the flashlight JJ, Thanks bro!

Looking really great Serge - I love following your posts and all the discussions they create. Keep up the great work !!!

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
...
I don't see where HHG for bindings and trim will have any benefit to the tone of the guitar.
...
[/QUOTE]

What about accustic coupling between the sides and the top?

Thanks Rich, i look forward to see your next progress pics too bro!

Brother Hesh, it'd be nice to have someone do a test on it to see if it helps or not tonewise although i'll be the first to agree that it will not be as significant tonewise than braces are for that matter but even if it was just a small amount, coupled with the fact of having the strongest glue for joints, i think it's worth it to try, for me that is! Again people, i'm not implying that everyone should do this, let's just see it as a test!

Cheers

Hesh, I think you're absolutely right. HHG on rosettes and binding? Does it help the tone? Probably not at all... I just use it almost for everything. Why? I'm not quite sure... I know I'm very impressed with it's longevity and the fact that as it cures, it's the only glue that will 'contract' into itself. I don't know if I'm explaining that correctly... I also love the fact that it tacks so quickly. It's like you say, different medecines for different ailments... (psssst... just between you and me, I think the tone fairies prefer HHG... )

That being said, on my latest, I used titebond for the blocks, fish glue for the rims and HHG for everything else. I also bought some West System Epoxy. I will be using this for my neck laminations and for gluing on the FB. I gap fill with CA and I use System Three for pore filling...

That's another thing that has me worried. I wonder about the longevity of filler epoxies... I think I'd like to try the egg white slurry. In fact, I think I'll give it a go this time around...

JJ, you're absolutely right. Mario uses a flashlight when closing his boxes...

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Serge...I'd be surprised if you could ever "test" this on a completed guitar. Perhaps a controlled test on identical pieces of wood blanks might be revealing when a signal is applied and measured. I'll bet Dr. Carruth has info on this. Several things convinced me personally to go with HHG from the start:

1) Personal testing on the hardness of the finished glue. As you mentioned, HHG crystallizes to a glass-like hardness. The other glues that contain vinyl monomers cure much softer. Harder stuff reflects and reverberates sound while softer stuff absorbs sound. Tim McKnight actually quantified hardness using a durometer. The LMI white was the only glue that came close but HHG was significantly harder. This led to my personal philosophy in choosing materials..."If it rings (resonates) when tapped it's good; if it thuds (absorbs) when tapped it's bad."

2) It's what the original Founding Fathers of guitar and violin building used...and we still revere the sound of those instruments. I believe it's one element and I chose to learn how to use the stuff.

3) Along with other best practices, HHG represents a theoretical incremental improvement toward the transmission of sound. As a former OLFer (Mario,again) once said, "It's the little things that add up to produce quality sound". As a detailed OC-afflicted person by nature, I'm compelled to sweat the little stuff once educated. Try tapping vinyl bindings, or fiber purflings. Hesh, I disagree with your rationale. Everything that touches the guitar is acoustically coupled or de-coupled, including tuners, finish, your hand on the neck, even dust accumulating inside the body, etc., etc. It's just a matter of degree.

4) Finally, and most importantly...when I started, I didn't know I was supposed to be afraid of using this glue. Since I had to learn everything, this was just another chapter in my self-imposed apprenticeship. After 5 years, I now know more about what I don't know and that list increases daily.

Alain...you just reminded me of something. I DON'T use HHG on the FB to neck. That caused a severe back bow on my first. Instead, I use epoxy for that area. I have been using Titebond for my laminated neck builds but plan to switch to epoxy.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

We're all using HHG on faith...but the rationale is acoustically sound. The factories don't use HHG nor wood bingings nor laminated necks and a lot of other features because they can make them faster and cheaper using more modern methods and materials. They also don't tap tune their tops nor vary thickness or braces for stiff or floppy tops. Their other goal is to produce a guitar that doesn't come back for warranty repairs. And that's why only a certain percentage of factory guitars are exceptional. Play five Martins or Taylors of the same model and you'll see why.

That's the very reason why there's a market for hand-built guitars...because builders have better control on those variables...they sweat the little stuff that adds up to a more consistent, predictable and repeatable sound. And the end users realize that and are willing to pay for that extra attention to details.

Have I played guitars that sound good without having used HHG?...of course. I have a 35 year old Martin that is my standard, and it didn't use HHG. Should we feel anything less about builders who don't use HHG...of course not. My bet is that they customized their tops and braces and tapped until it rang...not thudded. That's much more effective in achieving a quality sound than the choice of glue.

Remember...HHG is incremental...not definitive. And we continue to use it based on faith in its sonic propertes.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

If I'm not mistaken, Jeff Traugott uses titebond exclusively... Doesn't seem to hurt him at all!

I'll stick to my vast array of glues for now...

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

I'm pretty sure the Jim Olson uses AR glues, not sure if it's tight bond though....doesn't seem to hurt him either

I would think that it would be hard to do the bracing in a vacuum press if you used HHG, or I guess you could do one brace at a time with it.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Hesh and JJ, i agree with both of you brothers and Alain, i just love your open mind bro!

Did a little non-scientific test today and tapped the binding/purflings width on the top and back areas, not the sides, and i it produced a ping all around the perimeters, not a thump, not sure if it means anything because no 2 which was glued using Titebond is gone to Florida and can't compare between the 2 but i was really surprized to hear this resonate that way.

Doesn't matter what we use, as Hesh said, it's how we get there that matters!

Cheers

Very interesting thread folks. Alain/JJ you've certainly articulated your reasons well. Thank you. Serge with apologies if this thread went a different direction than intended with my questions.

At the last ASIA I asked a bunch of builders like Judy Threat, Linda Manzer and Bill Moll if they use HHG. All of them said they didn't. Bill was the only one that offered up his reason and that was the issue of the extra time it would take. Bill started his craft as a violin builder in the old tradition.

I am curious enough now to give it a try on my next build and see for myself (though I think I'll stick with my CA method for bindings).

JJ you mention that you should make sure all of the braces tuck neatly and everything be centred nicely during the dry fit stage.

Here's a suggestion. When you cut your top and back plate leave a little nub that overhangs at the tail and neck block end. Tack glue a small piece of scrap spruce roughly centred at the tail and neck block flush with the top of the rib. Dry fit the top and lightly clamp it down and double check everything is centred nicely. Drill a hole the diameter of a round toothpich through the centre line of the little nub at the neck and tail block end -- through the piece of tack glued spruce. When you glue the top on, push a toothpick through the tail and neck block end before placing your go bar rods. This should ensure that the plate doesn't move around on you if you braces aren't tucked perfectly. Anthony Z39055.033287037

Anthony, are you tack gluing this piece of spruce on the outside at the tail, or on the inside?

This is a great suggestion, thanks.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

No apologies needed Anthony, au contraire, i'm loving this and i look forwars to use that trick of yours but first, would also like to be enlightened about the question that Rod raised please!

Thanks bro!

Great tip Anthony...especially now that I'm no longer tucking the lower legs of the X-Brace. I'll definitely try this next time around.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Rod, tack glue it on the outside. Once the top has been glued and it's dry, you can pop the small piece of spruce off with a chisel. Gluing it on the inside wouldn't work as the neck and tail block would be in the way.

In Rod's absence, Thanks Anthony!

Yes that is what I assumed, but you know what they say about assuming.......

Thanks Anthony

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Hey guys...no thanks necesary! It is assumed with good reason.